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Askville Posts #14: More discussions with Christians
A post from the discussion thread for my question "Christians - tell me your story of being discriminated against or oppressed by atheists?"
By the way, I imagine this topic is now as boring to everyone here as the Hillary/Obama topic. I'll try to stop posting these here.
[A user talked about dishonest, so I asked him if he felt that I was being dishonest. He replied that HE wasn't judging me, and included a parable about honesty and guilt.]
I wasn't concerned about judging; I was asking about your feelings! Or your opinion, if you prefer.
*sigh*
This is, I suspect, an example of the gap of understanding between us. I laughed at the idea that I would fear a divine judge, just now. And I was a little offended at the implication that I was not honest, but was rather haunted by guilt.
Because in order to fear God's judgement, or to be haunted by guilt for speaking about atheism, I would have to be a believer! And since I am not a believer, I don't have that fear and I am not haunted.
You are effectively insisting on thinking of me (and treating me) as a believer despite my own repeated affirmation to the contrary. In essence, you're saying that I am lying about my atheism. I believe that you are doing this because the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand.
I could try to make the point through analogy. If I were to warn you that for various sins you faced the wrath of Thor, and would need to consider whether you might be on the recieving end of mighty Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), would you tremble with fear and doubt, deep inside? Or would you find the implied threat silly, and laugh?
I'm afraid that no matter how I put it, I cannot get across the point that atheists don't believe. We do not fear God, or judgement, or any supernatural entity. We fear other things; things like injury or the illness of a loved one or ourelves, for example. But our fears are based on the world around us - a world in which we do not perceive a god.
I fear that the power steering on my car is going to need repair soon. And I don't even want to think about the repairs we need to make on our porch roof; that's probably going to eat our tax refund right up.
But I don't fear judgement.
I will admit it disheartens me that I don't seem to be able to get my point across - that atheists really don't believe. I will continue to try to make that point, though. It seems worthwhile.
Just to clarify, I am not trying to insult your intelligence by saying "...the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand." Since you firmly believe in God, it's only natural that it should be extremely difficult (perhaps impossible) to put yourself in the mindset of someone who truly doesn't share that belief.
I've seen it over and over; Christians making arguments that rest upon the assumption that the listener shares Christian beliefs, deep down. I imagine that it's frustrating when the arguments don't work. It must make atheists seem all the more stubborn, antagonistic, dishonest and (perhaps) insane. God is obvious to you, but we still insist on saying that we do not perceive Him!
I can see how that would be annoying.
By the way, I imagine this topic is now as boring to everyone here as the Hillary/Obama topic. I'll try to stop posting these here.
[A user talked about dishonest, so I asked him if he felt that I was being dishonest. He replied that HE wasn't judging me, and included a parable about honesty and guilt.]
I wasn't concerned about judging; I was asking about your feelings! Or your opinion, if you prefer.
*sigh*
This is, I suspect, an example of the gap of understanding between us. I laughed at the idea that I would fear a divine judge, just now. And I was a little offended at the implication that I was not honest, but was rather haunted by guilt.
Because in order to fear God's judgement, or to be haunted by guilt for speaking about atheism, I would have to be a believer! And since I am not a believer, I don't have that fear and I am not haunted.
You are effectively insisting on thinking of me (and treating me) as a believer despite my own repeated affirmation to the contrary. In essence, you're saying that I am lying about my atheism. I believe that you are doing this because the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand.
I could try to make the point through analogy. If I were to warn you that for various sins you faced the wrath of Thor, and would need to consider whether you might be on the recieving end of mighty Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), would you tremble with fear and doubt, deep inside? Or would you find the implied threat silly, and laugh?
I'm afraid that no matter how I put it, I cannot get across the point that atheists don't believe. We do not fear God, or judgement, or any supernatural entity. We fear other things; things like injury or the illness of a loved one or ourelves, for example. But our fears are based on the world around us - a world in which we do not perceive a god.
I fear that the power steering on my car is going to need repair soon. And I don't even want to think about the repairs we need to make on our porch roof; that's probably going to eat our tax refund right up.
But I don't fear judgement.
I will admit it disheartens me that I don't seem to be able to get my point across - that atheists really don't believe. I will continue to try to make that point, though. It seems worthwhile.
Just to clarify, I am not trying to insult your intelligence by saying "...the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand." Since you firmly believe in God, it's only natural that it should be extremely difficult (perhaps impossible) to put yourself in the mindset of someone who truly doesn't share that belief.
I've seen it over and over; Christians making arguments that rest upon the assumption that the listener shares Christian beliefs, deep down. I imagine that it's frustrating when the arguments don't work. It must make atheists seem all the more stubborn, antagonistic, dishonest and (perhaps) insane. God is obvious to you, but we still insist on saying that we do not perceive Him!
I can see how that would be annoying.