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Faith and Faithlessness
I responded to a post in the ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
atheist community from a theist who was perplexed by atheism. My reply was ignored, of course. I'm beginning to believe that I'm invisible. But what the hell, I'll post it here. If only as a record for myself.
Because we simply see no evidence that God exists. It's really that simple; you see, or rather feel something that we just don't.
I once saw the noted author and atheist Isaac Asimov giving a lecture at the University of Bridgeport (CT) many years ago. During the question and answer session, several people in the audience stood up and asked him why he didn't believe in God; he'd written a book on the Bible, so they knew that he was aware of it. So why was he chosing to burn in Hell for eternity?
He answered, quite calmly, that religion was a matter of personal emotional experience - an experience that he hadn't had. They, he assumed, had had some sort of personal religious revelation; they had in some way felt touched by God. He had not. That being the case, any profession of religious faith on his part would be not only meaningless, but hypocritical.
The questioners didn't accept that, of course, and got pretty loud about it. They became so disruptive, in fact, that campus Security was called to escort them from the room.
So basically it comes down to this: to you, evidence of God is obvious and everywhere. To us, it's not. We don't see it.
Mind you, some of us have tried to see that evidence; we've tried our best to see some sort of evidence for the existence of God. But in the end we haven't been able to avoid the conclusion that it just isn't there. And ultimately, our loyalty is to the truth. We've chosen it over social pressure and condemnation. We've given up a comforting myth to deal with the inevitability of death and nonexistence in our own individual ways.
I hope you can understand that that takes a kind of integrity and courage.
I'll also say that it's patronizing to suggest that atheists don't believe in anything we can't directly see or experience. That's certainly not the case. I've never been to Tucson, Arizona, but I'm sure that it exists. But that's because there is a huge amount of evidence that it exists, in the form of photographs, maps, references in books, people I know personally who have been there...this is all evidence which I judge to be credible.
In my own judgement, there is no more "evidence" for the existance of the supernatural - including any version of God - than there is for, say, a magical elf who lives inside the Moon and grants wishes. In other words, none. It's silly, and not credible in any way.
Perhaps I'm wrong, and someday that magical elf will toss me into the burning clothesdryer that he maintains beneath Mare Imbrium for the eternal punishment of unbelievers like myself...but I really, really don't think so, and I'm not worrying about it for a second.
Neither, I suspect, are you.
And your reasons for not believing in my magical elf are exactly the same as my reasons for not believing in God or the supernatural.
But YOU have closed your mind to the existence of the magical elf.
You see, if you believe in EVERYTHING, than you basically believe in nothing. Because "everything" includes every opposite, an infinity of possibilities. Perhaps there's a god who wants you to post in your journal. You don't know there isn't, so you can't disbelieve in him!
But maybe there's a god who DOESN'T want you to post. Again, there's no way for you to know...so you must be open to that possibility, too.
But their Commandments are mutually contradictory. And they're both completely silly and unbelievable. So you do what seems best to you; you post, or you don't post, as you choose.
Keeping an "open mind" in the way that you suggest makes knowledge, decisions, and even thinking both meaningless and impossible. And you, yourself, have clearly rejected that approach, since you have chosen ONE god, rejecting all others.
Sorry, I've gone on much too long here.
atheist community from a theist who was perplexed by atheism. My reply was ignored, of course. I'm beginning to believe that I'm invisible. But what the hell, I'll post it here. If only as a record for myself.Why is it so difficult?
Because we simply see no evidence that God exists. It's really that simple; you see, or rather feel something that we just don't.
I once saw the noted author and atheist Isaac Asimov giving a lecture at the University of Bridgeport (CT) many years ago. During the question and answer session, several people in the audience stood up and asked him why he didn't believe in God; he'd written a book on the Bible, so they knew that he was aware of it. So why was he chosing to burn in Hell for eternity?
He answered, quite calmly, that religion was a matter of personal emotional experience - an experience that he hadn't had. They, he assumed, had had some sort of personal religious revelation; they had in some way felt touched by God. He had not. That being the case, any profession of religious faith on his part would be not only meaningless, but hypocritical.
The questioners didn't accept that, of course, and got pretty loud about it. They became so disruptive, in fact, that campus Security was called to escort them from the room.
So basically it comes down to this: to you, evidence of God is obvious and everywhere. To us, it's not. We don't see it.
Mind you, some of us have tried to see that evidence; we've tried our best to see some sort of evidence for the existence of God. But in the end we haven't been able to avoid the conclusion that it just isn't there. And ultimately, our loyalty is to the truth. We've chosen it over social pressure and condemnation. We've given up a comforting myth to deal with the inevitability of death and nonexistence in our own individual ways.
I hope you can understand that that takes a kind of integrity and courage.
I'll also say that it's patronizing to suggest that atheists don't believe in anything we can't directly see or experience. That's certainly not the case. I've never been to Tucson, Arizona, but I'm sure that it exists. But that's because there is a huge amount of evidence that it exists, in the form of photographs, maps, references in books, people I know personally who have been there...this is all evidence which I judge to be credible.
In my own judgement, there is no more "evidence" for the existance of the supernatural - including any version of God - than there is for, say, a magical elf who lives inside the Moon and grants wishes. In other words, none. It's silly, and not credible in any way.
Perhaps I'm wrong, and someday that magical elf will toss me into the burning clothesdryer that he maintains beneath Mare Imbrium for the eternal punishment of unbelievers like myself...but I really, really don't think so, and I'm not worrying about it for a second.
Neither, I suspect, are you.
And your reasons for not believing in my magical elf are exactly the same as my reasons for not believing in God or the supernatural.
I just want people to open there minds to the possibility of all things.
But YOU have closed your mind to the existence of the magical elf.
You see, if you believe in EVERYTHING, than you basically believe in nothing. Because "everything" includes every opposite, an infinity of possibilities. Perhaps there's a god who wants you to post in your journal. You don't know there isn't, so you can't disbelieve in him!
But maybe there's a god who DOESN'T want you to post. Again, there's no way for you to know...so you must be open to that possibility, too.
But their Commandments are mutually contradictory. And they're both completely silly and unbelievable. So you do what seems best to you; you post, or you don't post, as you choose.
Keeping an "open mind" in the way that you suggest makes knowledge, decisions, and even thinking both meaningless and impossible. And you, yourself, have clearly rejected that approach, since you have chosen ONE god, rejecting all others.
Sorry, I've gone on much too long here.
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This, especially:
I've never been to Tucson, Arizona, but I'm sure that it exists. But that's because there is a huge amount of evidence that it exists, in the form of photographs, maps, references in books, people I know personally who have been there...this is all evidence which I judge to be credible.
In my own judgement, there is no more "evidence" for the existance of the supernatural - including any version of God - than there is for, say, a magical elf who lives inside the Moon and grants wishes. In other words, none. It's silly, and not credible in any way.
Perhaps I'm wrong, and someday that magical elf will toss me into the burning clothesdryer that he maintains beneath Mare Imbrium for the eternal punishment of unbelievers like myself...but I really, really don't think so, and I'm not worrying about it for a second.
Can I
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And thanks for introducing me to metaquotes just now - I hadn't heard of it. Interesting!
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I'm troubled by the idea that the theists tried to shout down Asimov for not having a revelationary experience.
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It seems that was their agenda no matter what Asimov's response was. Some people are beyond reasonable discussion :/
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Either that or they didn't understand it in the first place :-p
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I strongly believe that existence on this world is only ever going to become peaceful when we accept each others beliefs (or querks as some may see it).
You simply don't see proof of the existence of the Divine, but other people interpret it differently. It's something called faith, which is beyond logic. Once you refute logic an entire realm of possibilities opens up. Which is where I suppose your magical elf argument comes in. Then that's where you have to use your heart. A magickal elf may exist in the moon, but your heart feels like it's not likely to. However, there are numerous things I am surrounded by every day that make me FEEL like the divine does exist, IN MY HEART.
Okay, that was me trying to explain my faith. Which probably sounds like namby pamby new age bullshit to a lot of you. That's a tangent anyway, the point I was trying to make is atheist, agnostic or devout, we need to accept each other. Religious people should be free of having atheists sneer down their noses at them because they don't agree with their beliefs. On the flip side of the coin, atheists should be free to hold their beliefs/thoughts without religious people sneering at them for not 'finding' the Divine or not 'having faith'.
This comment probably hasn't made much sense. It was much more organised in my head...
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That said...I think I've given you the wrong impression. I'm not hostile to religion, not at all. And frankly, I'm surprised to hear you say that we're on opposite sides of the spectrum!
Here in the US, atheists, agnostics, and pagans - and frankly, anyone who isn't either a fundamentalist religious-right Christian or a right-wing Orthodox Jew - are all in the same boat. A boat with a big target painted on it, courtesy of the religious right and the Republican Party.
The thing is...to be honest, I think that these religious-right people aren't really Christians. If they were, I wouldn't have a problem with them. But these are people who in no way practice real Christianity. They believe in giving more wealth to the wealthy, in robbing the poor, and - well, in just about every way imaginable, these people are the antithesis of true Christianity.
And it's them that I'm hostile to.
The person I was initially responding to was, I presume, not actually a member of that peculiar political cult. But I felt that she was speaking from their talking points. I knew that there was almost no chance to get her to understand why atheists don't believe (whereas I DO think I understand why she believes; there was a time when I considered myself a Christian, and a conservative one at that).
I REALLY have to sleep...my head is pounding, and it feels like my chest is full of poison. But I did want to mention one more thing: it would be a mistake to think that unbelievers don't listen to their hearts. I can tell you, honestly, that I feel hope, and faith (although not perhaps as you would define it), and a connection to the universe. I don't know any atheists who are strictly cold and rational; I hope that my journal has made it clear that I'm not, anyway.
It's my passion for the truth (as I best see and understand it) that led me to be an atheist, more than anything else. I simply felt that to profess religion any longer would be a lie, and I couldn't live like that.
Hmm. I'm actually taken aback by this. It's just...I guess it shows just how great the difference is between the US and the UK. Here in the US, atheists are in no position to sneer at anyone - we're barely tolerated. No self-admitted atheist could ever win a statewide or national public office here - the very thought is ludicrous. Sure, a few hot-headed atheists may sneer at fundamentalists online, or in the privacy of their own homes, but honestly...as a class, we are more hated than any other group that I can think of.
Except, perhaps, pagans...I'm not sure about that. To be honest, my guess is that while the vast majority of Americans are aware of the existence of atheists, they have no real comprehension of paganism at all - it simply hasn't received any real attention from the media. It's an invisible faith.
And now I really must sleep.
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>>>Hmm. I'm actually taken aback by this. It's just...I guess it shows just how great the difference is between the US and the UK. Here in the US, atheists are in no position to sneer at anyone - we're barely tolerated. No self-admitted atheist could ever win a statewide or national public office here - the very thought is ludicrous. Sure, a few hot-headed atheists may sneer at fundamentalists online, or in the privacy of their own homes, but honestly...as a class, we are more hated than any other group that I can think of.<<<
It is completly different over here in the U.K. I read a statistic (I can't vouch for it's source) that something like 60% of Americans go to church/temple/synagogue, or have some kind of religious faith. Whereas, over here, the actual figure for that kind of religious activity is 1%. 1% of people regularly go to church/temple/synagogue. That's a stark distinction, and I agree it definitely does account for some cultural differences.
Over here, you very rarely hear people talk about their religions. It's generally assumed that most people responsible for the running of the country are loosely Christian. No one ever questions them on it, and it's never used as a campaign running stance or something. I'd said over here some degree of atheism or AGNOSTICISM seems to be the norm. Highly religious people are out of the ordinary. Devoutly religious people are viewed with suspicion, especially non 'Christians' like Muslims and Jews.
No, I'd say the main thing over here that politicians are questioned on is drugs and family life. That seems to be what they are quizzed about, but that's a whole other rant that I may post separately in my own LJ.
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I'm not talking about you, but some people make objective truth into a kind of cult. If it can't be scientifically proven, or physically shown to exist, you can't talk about it. And it bothers me, because by my standards they haven't proven anything (hell, by my standards you haven't proven that Tucson, Arizona exists).
Kiralee