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Askville Posts #6: Atheism (continued)
More from the discussion thread for the question "God is more interested in you listening to God, than talking to God. Can you explain this?"
[A user said that Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ had changed many people's lives, and she believe that God had blessed Mel Gibson for that by making the movie an unprecedented success]
Well, [user], I have to admit that you made me snicker with that one.
Mel apparently hates God's chosen people, and after the "Passion" his drunken antisemitic slurs pretty much torpedoed his Hollywood career. He gets a few roles these days, I think, but he's nowhere near the box office god that he was. Mostly he does voice-acting now.
And frankly, the whole idea of the creator of the universe "blessing" somebody because of a movie, well...it's as silly as football teams praying for victory. It's very hard to take that sort of thing seriously.
If God spends all his time dealing with that sort of issue instead of healing children with cancer, for example (which he does not seem to do), then I, for one, would have to question His priorities.
"Forget those 10,000 kids with leukemia, but make sure that Mel's box office is boffo!" - God
[The same user replied that they believed that some coaches had gotten their teams to win by prayer and faith.]
So the Creator of the universe is sitting around waiting for millionaires to ask him to make their teams win?
This is so ridiculous that I honestly find myself at a loss for words. As for all the miracle cures, James Randi wrote a wonderful book called "The Faith Healers" which debunked many of the most famous practitioners of that "art".
I realize that I am not going to convince you, Shasha; because, among other things, you really want to believe. No one can convince you against their will. But I have no doubt that if prayer DID have any effect WHATSOEVER on disease or the physical world in any way, that effect would have been discovered by scientists who would have become world-famous overnight.
There have been studies on the efficacy of prayer in healing. It has no effect, except (presumably) to make the prayed-for patients feel comforted - if they're theists. "Blind" prayer studies show that prayer has no effect at all.
But I know that you don't want to believe that, and therefore you will not.
[A different user insisted that he and others had been cured by God of various illnesses through prayer.]
Well [user], the problem is this: followers of other religions also have experienced "miraculous" healing through prayer to their god(s). Heck, even within Christianity, there are differing sects which firmly insist that all other sects are utter heresy and yet claim to be able to heal through prayer!
We must also note that there have been many good people - even young children - who have NOT been healed, despite prayer.
Which leaves us with the following possibilities:
1. God doesn't care what faith or sect you are. He'll heal you (or not) depending on some factor we don't understand, which might include prayer some of the time. But he doesn't care if you're Christian, Muslim, or some other faith.
2. All gods exist, and can heal their followers. Of course, this idea is not acceptable to most Christians (and there are other faiths which would also object).
3. God exists, and he only heals his true followers. But some other process duplicates that healing process sometimes in idolaters.
4. The mind can have surprising effects on the body, and sometimes diseases and injuries heal in unexpected ways. These "cures" are caused by natural biological processes which are not yet completely understood.
5. I'm open to any other possibilities; please suggest some.
We know that the mind is capable of astonishing effects on the body. For example, a good hypnotist can put someone under, tell them that they're being burned with a lit cigarette, touch them with a pencil eraser, and their body will immediately produce the complete stigmata of a cigarette burn. Likewise, we have seen diseases and injuries which have been curiously slow to heal, as well as ones which heal remarkably quickly.
And we know that the mind is capable of self-deception some time. It's been shown that many people who have supposedly been "healed" by Christian faith healers have had their symptoms return, and end up returning again and again for more "healing". Tragically, some "healed" persons have stopped taking lifesaving medications such as insulin because they were "cured", and proceeded to die of their illnesses.
(You might find "The Faith Healers" by James Randi to be an interesting read. It exposes some of the truly cruel tricks that some Christian faith healers have used to trick their victims.)
Anyway, given all that, option #4 seems by far the most reasonable explanation to me. But that's just my opinion, and I've already acknowledged that if someone wants to believe that God healed them, I am not going to convince them otherwise. Actually, I don't think I'd want to! Why should I take someone's comfort away from them?
[A user said that Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ had changed many people's lives, and she believe that God had blessed Mel Gibson for that by making the movie an unprecedented success]
Well, [user], I have to admit that you made me snicker with that one.
Mel apparently hates God's chosen people, and after the "Passion" his drunken antisemitic slurs pretty much torpedoed his Hollywood career. He gets a few roles these days, I think, but he's nowhere near the box office god that he was. Mostly he does voice-acting now.
And frankly, the whole idea of the creator of the universe "blessing" somebody because of a movie, well...it's as silly as football teams praying for victory. It's very hard to take that sort of thing seriously.
If God spends all his time dealing with that sort of issue instead of healing children with cancer, for example (which he does not seem to do), then I, for one, would have to question His priorities.
"Forget those 10,000 kids with leukemia, but make sure that Mel's box office is boffo!" - God
[The same user replied that they believed that some coaches had gotten their teams to win by prayer and faith.]
So the Creator of the universe is sitting around waiting for millionaires to ask him to make their teams win?
This is so ridiculous that I honestly find myself at a loss for words. As for all the miracle cures, James Randi wrote a wonderful book called "The Faith Healers" which debunked many of the most famous practitioners of that "art".
I realize that I am not going to convince you, Shasha; because, among other things, you really want to believe. No one can convince you against their will. But I have no doubt that if prayer DID have any effect WHATSOEVER on disease or the physical world in any way, that effect would have been discovered by scientists who would have become world-famous overnight.
There have been studies on the efficacy of prayer in healing. It has no effect, except (presumably) to make the prayed-for patients feel comforted - if they're theists. "Blind" prayer studies show that prayer has no effect at all.
But I know that you don't want to believe that, and therefore you will not.
[A different user insisted that he and others had been cured by God of various illnesses through prayer.]
Well [user], the problem is this: followers of other religions also have experienced "miraculous" healing through prayer to their god(s). Heck, even within Christianity, there are differing sects which firmly insist that all other sects are utter heresy and yet claim to be able to heal through prayer!
We must also note that there have been many good people - even young children - who have NOT been healed, despite prayer.
Which leaves us with the following possibilities:
1. God doesn't care what faith or sect you are. He'll heal you (or not) depending on some factor we don't understand, which might include prayer some of the time. But he doesn't care if you're Christian, Muslim, or some other faith.
2. All gods exist, and can heal their followers. Of course, this idea is not acceptable to most Christians (and there are other faiths which would also object).
3. God exists, and he only heals his true followers. But some other process duplicates that healing process sometimes in idolaters.
4. The mind can have surprising effects on the body, and sometimes diseases and injuries heal in unexpected ways. These "cures" are caused by natural biological processes which are not yet completely understood.
5. I'm open to any other possibilities; please suggest some.
We know that the mind is capable of astonishing effects on the body. For example, a good hypnotist can put someone under, tell them that they're being burned with a lit cigarette, touch them with a pencil eraser, and their body will immediately produce the complete stigmata of a cigarette burn. Likewise, we have seen diseases and injuries which have been curiously slow to heal, as well as ones which heal remarkably quickly.
And we know that the mind is capable of self-deception some time. It's been shown that many people who have supposedly been "healed" by Christian faith healers have had their symptoms return, and end up returning again and again for more "healing". Tragically, some "healed" persons have stopped taking lifesaving medications such as insulin because they were "cured", and proceeded to die of their illnesses.
(You might find "The Faith Healers" by James Randi to be an interesting read. It exposes some of the truly cruel tricks that some Christian faith healers have used to trick their victims.)
Anyway, given all that, option #4 seems by far the most reasonable explanation to me. But that's just my opinion, and I've already acknowledged that if someone wants to believe that God healed them, I am not going to convince them otherwise. Actually, I don't think I'd want to! Why should I take someone's comfort away from them?
no subject
There's something there that we don't understand. Answer 4.5, I think: "The mind can have surprising effects on the body..." and possibly on other bodies, too.