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Askville Posts #1: Atheism
From the discussion thread for the question "God is more interested in you listening to God, than talking to God. Can you explain this?"
Since I consider "God" to be completely imaginary, there is no listening to be done - you can't listen to what doesn't exist, and something that doesn't exist can't listen!
That's not what you wanted to hear, of course, which is why I didn't take an answer slot. But I thought I'd represent the atheist position.
"Peter, how can you consider something, "GOD" to be nothing?"
EternalOptimist, how can you consider something, "SANTA CLAUS", to be nothing?
Of course I used the words "completely imaginary", not "nothing". Obviously "God" exists as a concept. But Thor, Zeus, and Superman exist in the same way. That doesn't mean you believe in them, do you?
Kar: if you are an atheist (as I am), you do not believe in any god(s) - and you cannot MAKE yourself believe in something!
Seriously, you can't. So if your post was intended to get atheists to believe in God to order to receive from him - well, that just won't work. It betrays (as so many Christians do) a complete failure to understand what atheism is.
There are some aspects of logic and reason to atheism, yes. But if faith isn't there, there is no way to impart it. And atheists by definition do not believe in the supernatural - we don't share your "faith".
As for the whole issue of "receiving", I can't speak for anyone else. But I would say that my life now is as "blessed" (to use your terminology) as is anyone else that I know - if not more.
Sorry, Kar, I phrased it poorly. I realized that you were responding to Chow, and I wasn't saying that you were an atheist - I was using "you" in a general sense, i.e. my point was that atheists don't believe. It was obvious to me all along that you are a Christian, of course. :D
You are convinced that God exists, and believe that you have had experiences which validate that belief; I do not believe, and have not had such experiences. As long as we can agree to disagree, without trying to force our opinions on each other, neither of us can ask for more.
There is a fairly influential Christian faction in American society which has been using social and political influence to attempt to force their beliefs on non-Christians, however. And I will also readily admit that there are (and have been) some outspoken atheists who have spoken and written against religious belief. The difference is that some of the Christian groups are extremely fanatical, and have been using political power to attempt conversion through intimidation in spheres where that is not appropriate - such as our military and public schools. That is what I and many others, including some Christians, object to.
But I have no problem with belief, nor with evangelism as such. It's only when it becomes coerced that I object - strongly.
Hello, EternalOptimist.
From post #27:
"Saint Nicolas was a real person."
As may be. But that wasn't my question. I'm afraid you're being disingenuous! The question was, do you believe in Santa Claus - the magical red-suited elf who flies around the world in one night, delivering toys to good little children? Do you believe that he is actually, physically real, in the same way that you believe your God is?
I doubt it, but if I'm wrong, let me know.
"You contradict yourself when you acknowledge Something and then say it is Nothing."
EternalOptimist, you're changing what I said. I said that God is imaginary. I never said that the concept of God didn't exist - if it didn't we couldn't be having this conversation!
You're basically trying to stuff your words and concepts into my mouth, and then hold a straw man debate with yourself using me as a proxy. Don't be surprised when I object.
Discussing the concept of your God is not the same as "acknowledging" it's existence. If it were, then by discussing Superman you would have become a Supermanist - which would, I am sure, be heresy. :)
I will refrain from imagining the religious ceremonies, sacrifices, and prayers of Supermanity here. :D
I thought I'd made the point that atheists don't share your belief. Repeating the same thing over and over is not an effective way to testify. I KNOW that you believe; can you understand that I don't?
From post #30: "Peter, how blessed is a life that has it's ultimate goal as worm dirt?"
Well, I did say that I was using Christian terminology when I said "blessed". Let me rephrase it, if that will help: I consider my life to be happy and fulfilled as most, and more so than many.
As for a goal of "worm dirt": interesting. I think you are attempting to use the idea of death to frighten atheists into theism. But again, this betrays a failure to understand the atheist experience; we (or most of us) have certainly faced the prospect of death and nonexistence. I won't say that death holds no terrors for me, but I have faced them as honestly as I can - and I can tell you that death is far less frightening to me as an atheist than it was to me as a Christian.
Plus now I understand that the thing that matters is what I do in this life; how I raise my child, how I treat others, and (hopefully) how I help my species survive and further my beliefs. If I have done my best, my life will have been worthwhile. In any case, my death and dissolution will be a part of the natural cycle of life, and I hope that my descendants and the human race will continue onward - a little the better for my efforts.
Since I consider "God" to be completely imaginary, there is no listening to be done - you can't listen to what doesn't exist, and something that doesn't exist can't listen!
That's not what you wanted to hear, of course, which is why I didn't take an answer slot. But I thought I'd represent the atheist position.
"Peter, how can you consider something, "GOD" to be nothing?"
EternalOptimist, how can you consider something, "SANTA CLAUS", to be nothing?
Of course I used the words "completely imaginary", not "nothing". Obviously "God" exists as a concept. But Thor, Zeus, and Superman exist in the same way. That doesn't mean you believe in them, do you?
Kar: if you are an atheist (as I am), you do not believe in any god(s) - and you cannot MAKE yourself believe in something!
Seriously, you can't. So if your post was intended to get atheists to believe in God to order to receive from him - well, that just won't work. It betrays (as so many Christians do) a complete failure to understand what atheism is.
There are some aspects of logic and reason to atheism, yes. But if faith isn't there, there is no way to impart it. And atheists by definition do not believe in the supernatural - we don't share your "faith".
As for the whole issue of "receiving", I can't speak for anyone else. But I would say that my life now is as "blessed" (to use your terminology) as is anyone else that I know - if not more.
Sorry, Kar, I phrased it poorly. I realized that you were responding to Chow, and I wasn't saying that you were an atheist - I was using "you" in a general sense, i.e. my point was that atheists don't believe. It was obvious to me all along that you are a Christian, of course. :D
You are convinced that God exists, and believe that you have had experiences which validate that belief; I do not believe, and have not had such experiences. As long as we can agree to disagree, without trying to force our opinions on each other, neither of us can ask for more.
There is a fairly influential Christian faction in American society which has been using social and political influence to attempt to force their beliefs on non-Christians, however. And I will also readily admit that there are (and have been) some outspoken atheists who have spoken and written against religious belief. The difference is that some of the Christian groups are extremely fanatical, and have been using political power to attempt conversion through intimidation in spheres where that is not appropriate - such as our military and public schools. That is what I and many others, including some Christians, object to.
But I have no problem with belief, nor with evangelism as such. It's only when it becomes coerced that I object - strongly.
Hello, EternalOptimist.
From post #27:
"Saint Nicolas was a real person."
As may be. But that wasn't my question. I'm afraid you're being disingenuous! The question was, do you believe in Santa Claus - the magical red-suited elf who flies around the world in one night, delivering toys to good little children? Do you believe that he is actually, physically real, in the same way that you believe your God is?
I doubt it, but if I'm wrong, let me know.
"You contradict yourself when you acknowledge Something and then say it is Nothing."
EternalOptimist, you're changing what I said. I said that God is imaginary. I never said that the concept of God didn't exist - if it didn't we couldn't be having this conversation!
You're basically trying to stuff your words and concepts into my mouth, and then hold a straw man debate with yourself using me as a proxy. Don't be surprised when I object.
Discussing the concept of your God is not the same as "acknowledging" it's existence. If it were, then by discussing Superman you would have become a Supermanist - which would, I am sure, be heresy. :)
I will refrain from imagining the religious ceremonies, sacrifices, and prayers of Supermanity here. :D
I thought I'd made the point that atheists don't share your belief. Repeating the same thing over and over is not an effective way to testify. I KNOW that you believe; can you understand that I don't?
From post #30: "Peter, how blessed is a life that has it's ultimate goal as worm dirt?"
Well, I did say that I was using Christian terminology when I said "blessed". Let me rephrase it, if that will help: I consider my life to be happy and fulfilled as most, and more so than many.
As for a goal of "worm dirt": interesting. I think you are attempting to use the idea of death to frighten atheists into theism. But again, this betrays a failure to understand the atheist experience; we (or most of us) have certainly faced the prospect of death and nonexistence. I won't say that death holds no terrors for me, but I have faced them as honestly as I can - and I can tell you that death is far less frightening to me as an atheist than it was to me as a Christian.
Plus now I understand that the thing that matters is what I do in this life; how I raise my child, how I treat others, and (hopefully) how I help my species survive and further my beliefs. If I have done my best, my life will have been worthwhile. In any case, my death and dissolution will be a part of the natural cycle of life, and I hope that my descendants and the human race will continue onward - a little the better for my efforts.