Askville Posts #12: Atheism A-Plenty

Still more from the discussion thread for the question "God is more interested in you listening to God, than talking to God. Can you explain this?"

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[A user - a Christian, I suspect - who is new to the conversation discussed the question of the desire to have faith, which he considers a gift from God - which seems to imply that God intentionally made atheists.]

I don't think that the issue for atheists is a lack of the desire to have faith. Many atheists who were once Christian desired faith rather desperately, before we deconverted.

Rather, I think it's an actual lack of belief - coupled with an unwillingness or inability to continue trying to fool ourselves or pretend to others.

But I imagine that you could consider belief itself to be a gift from God as well - if he made you, he made your capacity for belief, I would think - so your point still seems valid to me.

It's certainly an issue I've pondered. If God exists, and he loves all human beings, why did he make so many of them that are apparently on that Hell-bound train? "Free will" is the answer, of course, but I don't think it makes sense. Why couldn't God have made a human race that had free will, but was also essentially good enough that most or all of them would go to Heaven? Why did he make a race of "children" of whom the vast majority (according to most mainstream Christian thought) will be consigned to damnation for all eternity – something that he had to know WHEN HE MADE THEM?

Perhaps "free will" is unmodifiable? That is, God's only option for making a free-willed species was one that was mostly defective, from his point of view? But if he is all-powerful, he can change the rules.

If he is omniscent, omnipotent, and all-loving, then the universe must be EXACTLY as he wanted it to be. Every rape. Every murder. Every child molestation. Every war. Every lie, injustice, crime, and sin, no matter how great or small - all of it exactly as he planned.

Free will and omniscience cannot co-exist.

But maybe he's deliberately keeping himself in ignorance, sort of the supernatural equivalent of keeping His eyes shut so as not to spoil the surprise? Even so, since he supposedly DESIGNED human beings, he surely must have known what he was doing - right? So couldn't he have designed a nicer race of human beings, one more pleasing to him and deserving of Heaven?

Sorry; I know that when I start talking like this I probably sound like a Christian, or as if I'm ripe for re-conversion. That's not the case, I can assure you. I just find this sort of intellectual exercise to be fun, to tell you the truth. :D

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[More on the topic of free will - someone claimed there was no such thing.]

If free will is an illusion, then this conversation has no meaning. There would be no "I" and no "you" - we would lack self-consciousness, and be nothing more than a pair of mindless meat-robots blindly following the entropic patterns which were established at the beginning of time.

That's why the free will vs. determinism argument always seemed senseless to me. Because if there is no free will, there is no argument. So put me down on the free will side every time!

My understanding is that there is a level of fundamental uncertainty on the quantum level which makes absolute determinism impossible. But I'm not a scientist, so you may have more information on that point than I do.

Askville Posts #12: Atheism A-Plenty

Still more from the discussion thread for the question "God is more interested in you listening to God, than talking to God. Can you explain this?"

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[A user - a Christian, I suspect - who is new to the conversation discussed the question of the desire to have faith, which he considers a gift from God - which seems to imply that God intentionally made atheists.]

I don't think that the issue for atheists is a lack of the desire to have faith. Many atheists who were once Christian desired faith rather desperately, before we deconverted.

Rather, I think it's an actual lack of belief - coupled with an unwillingness or inability to continue trying to fool ourselves or pretend to others.

But I imagine that you could consider belief itself to be a gift from God as well - if he made you, he made your capacity for belief, I would think - so your point still seems valid to me.

It's certainly an issue I've pondered. If God exists, and he loves all human beings, why did he make so many of them that are apparently on that Hell-bound train? "Free will" is the answer, of course, but I don't think it makes sense. Why couldn't God have made a human race that had free will, but was also essentially good enough that most or all of them would go to Heaven? Why did he make a race of "children" of whom the vast majority (according to most mainstream Christian thought) will be consigned to damnation for all eternity – something that he had to know WHEN HE MADE THEM?

Perhaps "free will" is unmodifiable? That is, God's only option for making a free-willed species was one that was mostly defective, from his point of view? But if he is all-powerful, he can change the rules.

If he is omniscent, omnipotent, and all-loving, then the universe must be EXACTLY as he wanted it to be. Every rape. Every murder. Every child molestation. Every war. Every lie, injustice, crime, and sin, no matter how great or small - all of it exactly as he planned.

Free will and omniscience cannot co-exist.

But maybe he's deliberately keeping himself in ignorance, sort of the supernatural equivalent of keeping His eyes shut so as not to spoil the surprise? Even so, since he supposedly DESIGNED human beings, he surely must have known what he was doing - right? So couldn't he have designed a nicer race of human beings, one more pleasing to him and deserving of Heaven?

Sorry; I know that when I start talking like this I probably sound like a Christian, or as if I'm ripe for re-conversion. That's not the case, I can assure you. I just find this sort of intellectual exercise to be fun, to tell you the truth. :D

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[More on the topic of free will - someone claimed there was no such thing.]

If free will is an illusion, then this conversation has no meaning. There would be no "I" and no "you" - we would lack self-consciousness, and be nothing more than a pair of mindless meat-robots blindly following the entropic patterns which were established at the beginning of time.

That's why the free will vs. determinism argument always seemed senseless to me. Because if there is no free will, there is no argument. So put me down on the free will side every time!

My understanding is that there is a level of fundamental uncertainty on the quantum level which makes absolute determinism impossible. But I'm not a scientist, so you may have more information on that point than I do.

Askville Posts #13: Atheism & Verbal Nonviolence

A post from the discussion thread for my question "Christians - tell me your story of being discriminated against or oppressed by atheists?" "

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[A pagan user was angry over mistreatment from Christians.]

I fear that I am going to sound pedantic or - still worse! - patronizing. If so, please forgive me.

I understand your frustration, [user]; believe me, I do! But I think it's also important not to turn the issue into a war. Because for one thing, Christians outnumber all non-Christians in the USA combined. If we have a war, we will lose.

Calling them names like "Bible-thumpers" just offends them to no point. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't disagree with them. Nor am I saying that we should stay quiet and try to hide. Not at all! But I think that if we start using angry words and pejorative labels, even in response to theirs, we only give them confirmation of their prejudices (recognizing that not all of them HAVE those prejudices).

And by returning anger for their anger, we give ammunition to those political-religious leaders who are constantly screaming about the terrible danger of non-Christians. That issue is an extremely useful one for them, one they use to incite their followers into a state of useful pliability. Recall the "Two Minute's Hate" from 1984. I think it's a bad idea to help them spread that view of us.

Think of it as a form of verbal non-violence. Gandhi showed how effective that can be. :D

Speak out. Let them know that you don't agree. But remember that your tone and the specific words you choose are also part of your overall message. Make them work for you, not against you!

Here endeth the sermon. I hope it wasn't too annoying. :D

Askville Posts #13: Atheism & Verbal Nonviolence

A post from the discussion thread for my question "Christians - tell me your story of being discriminated against or oppressed by atheists?" "

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[A pagan user was angry over mistreatment from Christians.]

I fear that I am going to sound pedantic or - still worse! - patronizing. If so, please forgive me.

I understand your frustration, [user]; believe me, I do! But I think it's also important not to turn the issue into a war. Because for one thing, Christians outnumber all non-Christians in the USA combined. If we have a war, we will lose.

Calling them names like "Bible-thumpers" just offends them to no point. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't disagree with them. Nor am I saying that we should stay quiet and try to hide. Not at all! But I think that if we start using angry words and pejorative labels, even in response to theirs, we only give them confirmation of their prejudices (recognizing that not all of them HAVE those prejudices).

And by returning anger for their anger, we give ammunition to those political-religious leaders who are constantly screaming about the terrible danger of non-Christians. That issue is an extremely useful one for them, one they use to incite their followers into a state of useful pliability. Recall the "Two Minute's Hate" from 1984. I think it's a bad idea to help them spread that view of us.

Think of it as a form of verbal non-violence. Gandhi showed how effective that can be. :D

Speak out. Let them know that you don't agree. But remember that your tone and the specific words you choose are also part of your overall message. Make them work for you, not against you!

Here endeth the sermon. I hope it wasn't too annoying. :D

Askville Posts #14: More discussions with Christians

A post from the discussion thread for my question "Christians - tell me your story of being discriminated against or oppressed by atheists?"

By the way, I imagine this topic is now as boring to everyone here as the Hillary/Obama topic. I'll try to stop posting these here.

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[A user talked about dishonest, so I asked him if he felt that I was being dishonest. He replied that HE wasn't judging me, and included a parable about honesty and guilt.]

I wasn't concerned about judging; I was asking about your feelings! Or your opinion, if you prefer.

*sigh*

This is, I suspect, an example of the gap of understanding between us. I laughed at the idea that I would fear a divine judge, just now. And I was a little offended at the implication that I was not honest, but was rather haunted by guilt.

Because in order to fear God's judgement, or to be haunted by guilt for speaking about atheism, I would have to be a believer! And since I am not a believer, I don't have that fear and I am not haunted.

You are effectively insisting on thinking of me (and treating me) as a believer despite my own repeated affirmation to the contrary. In essence, you're saying that I am lying about my atheism. I believe that you are doing this because the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand.

I could try to make the point through analogy. If I were to warn you that for various sins you faced the wrath of Thor, and would need to consider whether you might be on the recieving end of mighty Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), would you tremble with fear and doubt, deep inside? Or would you find the implied threat silly, and laugh?

I'm afraid that no matter how I put it, I cannot get across the point that atheists don't believe. We do not fear God, or judgement, or any supernatural entity. We fear other things; things like injury or the illness of a loved one or ourelves, for example. But our fears are based on the world around us - a world in which we do not perceive a god.

I fear that the power steering on my car is going to need repair soon. And I don't even want to think about the repairs we need to make on our porch roof; that's probably going to eat our tax refund right up.

But I don't fear judgement.

I will admit it disheartens me that I don't seem to be able to get my point across - that atheists really don't believe. I will continue to try to make that point, though. It seems worthwhile.

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Just to clarify, I am not trying to insult your intelligence by saying "...the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand." Since you firmly believe in God, it's only natural that it should be extremely difficult (perhaps impossible) to put yourself in the mindset of someone who truly doesn't share that belief.

I've seen it over and over; Christians making arguments that rest upon the assumption that the listener shares Christian beliefs, deep down. I imagine that it's frustrating when the arguments don't work. It must make atheists seem all the more stubborn, antagonistic, dishonest and (perhaps) insane. God is obvious to you, but we still insist on saying that we do not perceive Him!

I can see how that would be annoying.

Askville Posts #14: More discussions with Christians

A post from the discussion thread for my question "Christians - tell me your story of being discriminated against or oppressed by atheists?"

By the way, I imagine this topic is now as boring to everyone here as the Hillary/Obama topic. I'll try to stop posting these here.

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[A user talked about dishonest, so I asked him if he felt that I was being dishonest. He replied that HE wasn't judging me, and included a parable about honesty and guilt.]

I wasn't concerned about judging; I was asking about your feelings! Or your opinion, if you prefer.

*sigh*

This is, I suspect, an example of the gap of understanding between us. I laughed at the idea that I would fear a divine judge, just now. And I was a little offended at the implication that I was not honest, but was rather haunted by guilt.

Because in order to fear God's judgement, or to be haunted by guilt for speaking about atheism, I would have to be a believer! And since I am not a believer, I don't have that fear and I am not haunted.

You are effectively insisting on thinking of me (and treating me) as a believer despite my own repeated affirmation to the contrary. In essence, you're saying that I am lying about my atheism. I believe that you are doing this because the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand.

I could try to make the point through analogy. If I were to warn you that for various sins you faced the wrath of Thor, and would need to consider whether you might be on the recieving end of mighty Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), would you tremble with fear and doubt, deep inside? Or would you find the implied threat silly, and laugh?

I'm afraid that no matter how I put it, I cannot get across the point that atheists don't believe. We do not fear God, or judgement, or any supernatural entity. We fear other things; things like injury or the illness of a loved one or ourelves, for example. But our fears are based on the world around us - a world in which we do not perceive a god.

I fear that the power steering on my car is going to need repair soon. And I don't even want to think about the repairs we need to make on our porch roof; that's probably going to eat our tax refund right up.

But I don't fear judgement.

I will admit it disheartens me that I don't seem to be able to get my point across - that atheists really don't believe. I will continue to try to make that point, though. It seems worthwhile.

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Just to clarify, I am not trying to insult your intelligence by saying "...the atheist position is one that you either cannot or will not understand." Since you firmly believe in God, it's only natural that it should be extremely difficult (perhaps impossible) to put yourself in the mindset of someone who truly doesn't share that belief.

I've seen it over and over; Christians making arguments that rest upon the assumption that the listener shares Christian beliefs, deep down. I imagine that it's frustrating when the arguments don't work. It must make atheists seem all the more stubborn, antagonistic, dishonest and (perhaps) insane. God is obvious to you, but we still insist on saying that we do not perceive Him!

I can see how that would be annoying.